Help to setup BMG clone extruder

deckingman

@TPJensen said in Help to setup BMG clone extruder:

Is the E380,45 The only thing I need to change ??```

Probably but because you say it's a clone, who knows? Suggest you ask the vendor.

droftarts

I have been wanting to try out the Bondtech extruder, but the price for something I planned to 'experiment' with meant that I've recently fitted a BMG clones to my Delta; this one, for £9.99. Seems to work well, good grip, no slipping yet, with a 32mm (short, but not pancake) NEMA17 motor. I had heard reports that the filament path on these was not straight, leading to increased friction on the housing, but mine seems okay. I figured that if the plastic parts were useless, I could use the gears for the X axis upgrade I'm doing to my Cartesian machine (after I've run out of 3mm filament!), but it actually works fine. I'm impressed enough with the extruder that I'll be happy buy a genuine one (or possibly just the metal parts as needed) from Bondtech for my next extruder.

One thing I found was that for Bowden systems, if I put the Teflon tube in the 'bottom' coupling (in your picture), it didn't have much grip. This was using an insert in the hole that was for a groovemount hot end. The 'top' coupling has a much stronger grip, and running the extruder in reverse. I read somewhere in Bondtech documentation that this is what they recommend for Bowden too. But I notice yours has a different coupler to mine, so perhaps it has better grip. I also took the steps per mm from Bondtech, which recommended 415 step per mm. After some testing, mine came out very close at 419 steps per mm.

Relevant settings from my config.g:

; Drives
M569 P0 S0                                  ; Physical drive 0 goes forwards
M569 P1 S0                                  ; Physical drive 1 goes forwards
M569 P2 S0                                  ; Physical drive 2 goes forwards
M569 P3 S0                                  ; Physical drive 3 goes forwards
M350 X16 Y16 Z16 E16 I1                     ; Configure microstepping with interpolation
M92 X87.49 Y87.49 Z87.49 E419.00            ; Set steps per mm
M566 X1200.00 Y1200.00 Z1200.00 E1200.00    ; Set maximum instantaneous speed changes (mm/min)
M203 X15000.00 Y15000.00 Z15000.00 E9000.00 ; Set maximum speeds (mm/min)
M201 X4000.00 Y4000.00 Z4000.00 E4000.00    ; Set accelerations (mm/s^2)
M906 X800.00 Y800.00 Z800.00 E1200.00 I30   ; Set motor currents (mA) and motor idle factor in per cent

Ian

TPJensen

@droftarts

My extruder has a very good grib so no problems there....

My is a clone and they say Esteps 415 also but I'am at 388.21 but when I startet to print E368.21 before the print surface got nice and smooth... But in another tread i have one wrote to me that it could be the filament that not was the same all the way I he was right. The filament I used was one there came with the printer.

grizewald

@droftarts said in Help to setup BMG clone extruder:

I have been wanting to try out the Bondtech extruder, but the price for something I planned to 'experiment' with meant that I've recently fitted a BMG clones to my Delta...

While I'm happy to hear that you now think the idea is good enough that you'll actually buy the genuine item from the small Swedish company that invented it, I really don't understand people buying clones of specialised products like this to evaluate them.

If the clone extruder had turned out to be rubbish, maybe you would have dismissed the Bondtech extruder based on the poor execution of the Chinese cloner. It's hardly a good way to see if a product is any good.

Then there's the simple fact that if people like Bondtech get sick of seeing their innovation stolen and people's cash going into the pockets of Chinese cloners instead of theirs, they are likely to stop making things for 3D printers and the market loses another innovator.

Of course, your money is your money and you are entitled to spend it as you wish. I'm just pointing out the effects of buying the cloner's products. The 3D printing world is not the first young market I've seen where the genuine innovators left to do something else which would actually put food on their table to the detriment of everyone in that market when they withdrew their innovation from it.

And before anyone says "I buy the clones because the original is too expensive", we're talking about hobby 3D printing here, not things which are essential to living. If people can't afford the hobby without encouraging the cloners, maybe they should find a cheaper hobby.

TPJensen

@grizewald

You are right that buying the orignal is surely the best and you get better quality. But I also buy that but as you say my money is my money and as a hobby I got more than one and not cheap once. I cant buy everything original like I want to. But again you are right that I should do that.

It is always nice to get others input and answers.

BTW everything else is original on ALL 5 of my printers so hope that gives a little credit in your mind.

Thanks for your "answer"

DocTrucker

People need to tread with extreme caution on this topic. As this is a Duet3D hosted site I feel the admins have the right to dictate owners of clone Duets are not welcome to seek support here, fair enough.

However in terms of the effect of clones on the original company what is the difference between me buying second hand rather than new compared to me buying a clone? For instance in the cold light of day I would have to say the logical conclusion is likely to be I am causing just as much damage to Duet3D buying second hand and asking questions on here as I would be if I had bought a clone. I would like to think I am able to pitch in and help every now and again though balancing my value to this forum.

If we support this user in their infancy in the hobby now and lightly enthuse about the benefits of original products they are far more likely to remain, become active contributors and replace their sloppy cloned parts with genuine when they can afford to do so.

In terms of intellectual property we also need to be careful. Our hobby and in some cases our livelihoods were made possible by the expiration of a patent. Is the predominant failures of the cloners is to add any innovation to the product? Cost reduction could be classed as their innovation, they after all have tooled up for injection molding rather than plastic sintering? But yes without diving too deep into politics the cloners location and legal isolation/insulation leaves our manufacturers unable to compete on a cost basis. So really you are just highlighting the failings of free market economy and blaming the end consumer who has exercised their freedom of choice rather then the governments for failing to balance this inequality. For our companies it forces rapid innovation in order to still attract people to purchase direct, and ensures they do not sit for too long. Alas without further market control the sweat shops of the world have taken the cherry from the cake for product production. Development is tough, support is tough, and selling a stable product is supposed to be the easier money bit that has now less profitable.

Bondtech essentially adapted a type of mig wire feed to a polymer filament feed. If the E3Ds Hermes (that name tickles me!) is little more than using a no-idle-roller bontech design in a re-engineered housing (the tooling for injection molding thet the cloners have done is, after all a not insignificant amount of engineering effort) are we going to be as negative about people buying E3D Hermes over Bontech?

Edit: the cherry on the cake is lost by going open source, that is the nature of the beast. But the company benefits be developing a loyal user base that in turn supports other users. When this is established the original company benefits from this free support and development that would have otherwise need to be paid for. So the cherry is not given away for free, there is a benefit.

Edit 2: This is naturally a topic that will stoke many peoples emotions and provoke strong responses. I have been wanting to raise my opinion on the matter but I do not wish to make this personal. We are free to hold whatever view on the subject that we want to! In a strange sense this is both not the individuals fault, but all of ours.

DocTrucker

Confession time:

I have 2 cloned bontech extruders, but I plan to replace them as soon as my workload picks up to the point were I can pay for their replacement.

Likewise all of the boards I own at the moment are v0.6, or v0.8.5. 4 of them are second hand.

However when in a previous employment I had upgraded their v0.6 to a Duet Ethernet + Panel Due +Duex5, and a Bontech extruder. I can clearly see the benefit of the non cloned and more recent generations of systems. I'm not adversely pro clone or Luddite in nature.

Phaedrux

I don't think anyone has ever been turned away when seeking support for using a clone. They may get some gentle ribbing though.

The origins of RepRap has meant seeking out the cheapest parts possible to replicate as much as possible. RAMPS clones and cheap chinese vitamins have made a lot of the 3D printing market as it is viable. And without that market place there wouldn't be a market for Duet either.

Hopefully if people buy a clone and come here for support they feel welcomed and appreciate the support and in the future decide to make good on it and buy genuine.

However, if everyone decided that cost was the most important factor and only bought clones going forward how would Duet justify the R&D for new products? It's reasonable for supporting cloning to be discouraged, and there's valid arguments for supporting the innovators. The only real valid argument for buying a clone over genuine is to save a few bucks. We're not talk large sums here.

I don't think buying a clone should be vilified as badly as it has been in some comments sections around the internet. But a little bit of education and social pressure is warranted.

zapta

@Phaedrux said in Help to setup BMG clone extruder:

... there's valid arguments for supporting the innovators.

A Donate link would be useful here.

DocTrucker

No arguments with either of you there!

I was going to be say it would be awesome if a proportion the 'balancing' tax on the clones at import went back to the original developers of the cloned open source items! Alas the logistics would be challenging.

deckingman

@DocTrucker Each individual has their own opinion of what is right and what is wrong and it's not my place to make moral judgements. But at the same time, I have my own set of values by which I run my own life. For that reason, if a person buys a clone then I personally will not offer to help them, because to do so would be helping the vendor or maker of the clone, which is against my own personal principles.

DocTrucker

@deckingman fair enough fella.

deckingman

@DocTrucker .......but buying used or second hand is OK in my book

DocTrucker

@deckingman

Edit: Nothing else on offer now you've a duet3 is there?...

TPJensen

@DocTrucker said in Help to setup BMG clone extruder:

clone Duets

I would like to make this clear I do NOT have clone duet.

DocTrucker

@TPJensen Didn't mean to imply you had, sorry if it came across like that.

TPJensen

@DocTrucker said in Help to setup BMG clone extruder:

@TPJensen Didn't mean to imply you had, sorry if it came across like that.

That is okay... dont worry I like your post and follow you 100%...
I have a mate that did buy his first printer 1½ years ago and he did buy alot of clone things and I helped as good as I could.... Now the same mate have only orig. parts and 6 printers.... Untill I started to help him he had given up and put his printer up for sale put with a little help he went from boring failed prints to good prints and he did thing is was fun and he has just ordered Ultimaker 2+ Extended.. So if your help one also with clone parts then it can be good for the original company also.. (in this case very good)

Just has you also say @DocTrucker

zapta

Does the Duet license forbids commercial cloning? If not, they must have their reasoning for allowing it.

grizewald

@zapta said in Help to setup BMG clone extruder:

Does the Duet license forbids commercial cloning? If not, they must have their reasoning for allowing it.

No. See: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/T3P3/Duet/master/LICENSE

zapta

@grizewald said in Help to setup BMG clone extruder:

No. See: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/T3P3/Duet/master/LICENSE

Some developers choose to allow commercial competition (e.g. Arduino, Duet), some not, and some even include license hardware in their product (e.g. Teensy). Each and their goals and considerations. Would be interesting to hear Duet's explanation why they chose to allow.