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    Missing Steps - Cant Print SpreadCycle StealthChop tuning help

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    Tuning and tweaking
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    • carcamerarigundefined
      carcamerarig
      last edited by

      @dc42 Could you, or task somebody to do it, create a step by step guide from start to finish for this ( configuring then printing ) an idiots guide that a monkey could follow please. I'll pay for it to be done if you can organise it.

      ctilley79undefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • ctilley79undefined
        ctilley79 @carcamerarig
        last edited by

        @carcamerarig A method that doesn't require an oscilloscope would be nice.

        SputnikOC3dundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
        • SputnikOC3dundefined
          SputnikOC3d @ctilley79
          last edited by

          @ctilley79

          Acknowledgement of a potential issue and a working fix would be nicer.

          There seems to be issues around he spectrum of users with the TMC2209's and .9* stepper motors.

          That being the case I dont at all see the attraction to these 2209 drivers ... All this for sensorless homing ?

          ctilley79undefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • ctilley79undefined
            ctilley79 @SputnikOC3d
            last edited by

            @sputnikoc3d
            No. Sensorless homing is working fine while homing. He's only in StealthChop for homing currently. We switch back to SpreadCycle after homing. He's having the thumping/banging issues in SpreadCycle as well which is bizarre. SpreadCycle normally doesn't require tuning for it to operate on a variety of different motors. You might get more noise with different brands, but the stutters and resulting in layer shifts with SpreadCycle is stumping me. I don't see why the 2209 in SpreadCycle mode should vary among the different Trinamic chips regardless whether it's a 2660, 2209, 2208, or 5160.

            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • SputnikOC3dundefined
              SputnikOC3d @droftarts
              last edited by

              @droftarts - have any other insights to this issue ... any known successful configurations ?

              Missing steps in SpreadCycle on very easy print geometry and conservative travel speed moves/settings.

              Eliminated MANY potential aspects - but its starting to seem that these 2209's just dont like to play nice with LDO .9* motors

              carcamerarigundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • carcamerarigundefined
                carcamerarig @SputnikOC3d
                last edited by

                @sputnikoc3d said in SpreadCycle / StealthChop tuning / configuring help:

                @droftarts - have any other insights to this issue ... any known successful configurations ?

                Missing steps in SpreadCycle on very easy print geometry and conservative travel speed moves/settings.

                Eliminated MANY potential aspects - but its starting to seem that these 2209's just dont like to play nice with LDO .9* motors

                To be fair im at the point where im "hacked off" with the lack of input or support, 6 fairly knowledgable people located around the world all in different timezones have put an insane amount of time and assistance into trying to get this issue resolved to no avail... A simple procedure to follow to setup motors would pretty much alleviate this?

                droftartsundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                • carcamerarigundefined
                  carcamerarig
                  last edited by

                  link to last video, anyone with the link should be able to view

                  https://drive.google.com/file/d/1l5TgfHchP0JL5pU2HO_m7ZJxIEvsSPGY/view?usp=sharing

                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • carcamerarigundefined
                    carcamerarig
                    last edited by

                    Forced Spreadcycle settings, same thump/bang persists, StealthChop for homing only.

                    Config.g

                    ; General preferences 											Duplicate lines and comment out unused
                    G90																; Send absolute coordinates...
                    M83																; ...but relative extruder moves
                    M564 H0															; Permits ALL Axis movement prior to or without ANY Homing require [ over-rides default of no movement until all homed ]
                     
                    ; Network														Networked of sbc
                    ;M550 P"Duet3"													; Set machine name
                    ;M552 S1														; Enable network
                    ;*** Access point is configured manually via M587
                    ;M586 P0 S1														; Enable HTTP
                    ;M586 P1 S0														; Disable FTP
                    ;M586 P2 S0														; Disable Telnet
                    M575 P1 S1 B57600												; Panel Due
                     
                    ; Drive Mappings
                    M569 P0.0 S0 D2												; Drive 0 goes forwards: X Axis
                    M569 P0.1 S0 D2												; Drive 1 goes backwards: Y Axis
                    M569 P0.2 S0 D2											; Drive 2 goes backwards: Z Axis
                    M569 P0.3 S0 D2												; Drive 3 goes forwards: E Axis
                    M569 P0.4 S0 D2											; Drive 4 goes backwards: Z Axis (at E1)
                     
                    ; Motor remapping for dual Z and axis Limits
                    M584 X0 Y1 Z2:4 E3												; two Z motors connected to driver outputs Z and E1
                    M671 X-37:287 Y0:0 S4											; leadscrews at left (connected to Z) and right (connected to E1) of X axis
                     
                    ; Micrpstepping and Speed
                    M350 X16 Y16 E16 Z16 I1											; Configure microstepping with interpolation
                    M92 X200.00 Y200.00 Z400.00 E830.00								; Set steps per mm
                     
                    ; Speeds, Acceleration and Jerk
                    ;M566 X240 Y240 Z24 E1200 P1									; Set maximum instantaneous speed changes (mm/min) aka Jerk
                    M566 X600 Y600 Z24 E3000 P1										; Set maximum instantaneous speed changes (mm/min) aka Jerk
                    ;M203 X7200 Y7200 Z720 E4000									; Set maximum speeds (mm/min)
                    M203 X10800 Y10800 Z720 E4000									; Set maximum speeds (mm/min)
                    M201 X1250.00 Y1250.00 Z200 E4000								; Set accelerations (mm/s^2)
                    M204 P1250 T1700												; set print and travel accelerations (mm(s^2)
                     
                    ; Motor currents
                    M906 X950 Y950 Z600.00 E792 I30								; Set motor currents (mA) and motor idle factor in percent
                    M84 S30															; Set idle timeout
                     
                    ; Printer geometry
                    M208 X0:250 Y-4:215 Z-0.5:415									; X carriage moves from 0 to 250, Y bed goes from 0 to 210
                    M564 H0															; allow unhomed movement
                     
                    ; Endstops
                    M915 XY F0 S0 H400 R1											; configure stall detection for sensorless homing
                    M574 X1 Y1 S3													; Set endstops controlled by motor load detection
                     
                    ; Stallgaurd Sensitivy
                    M915 X S-50 F0 H400 R0
                    M915 Y S-50 F0 H400 R0
                    ;M915 X S-4 F0 H400 R0											; Set X axis Sensitivity  ;working 3.3
                    ;M915 Y S-2 F0 H400 R0											; Set y axis Sensitivity ; woring 3.3
                     
                    ; Input Shaper
                    M593 F61.85 P4														; Input Shaping
                     
                    ; Z-Probe Super Pinda
                    M574 X1 S3														; configure sensorless endstop for low end on X
                    M574 Y1 S3														; configure sensorless endstop for low end on Y
                    M574 Z1 S2														; Set endstops controlled by probe
                    M558 P5 C"^io3.in" I1 H1 F500 T4800 A30 S0.004					; Super Pinda
                     
                    ; Probing Mesh Grid and Sheets
                    M557 X24:221 Y10:195 P8											; Define mesh grid for probing
                    G31 P1000 X23 Y5 Z1.91											; Textured Sheet
                    ;G31 P1000 X23 Y5 Z1.280										; PEI
                     
                    ; Heatbed Heaters and Thermistor Bed 
                    M308 S0 P"temp0" Y"thermistor" T100000 B4725 C7.060000e-8		; Set thermistor + ADC parameters for heater 0 Bed
                    M950 H0 C"out0" T0 Q10											; Creates Bed Heater
                    M307 H0 R0.273 C345.3 D10.89 S1.00 V23.8						; Bed PID new version !!saved In config-override!!
                    M140 H0															; Bed uses Heater 0
                    M143 H0 S120													; Set temperature limit for heater 0 to 120C Bed
                     
                    ; HotEnd Heaters and Thermistor HotEnd      
                    M308 S1 P"temp1" Y"thermistor" T500000 B4723 C1.19622e-7		;define E0 temperature sensor Slice HT
                    M950 H1 C"out1" T1												; Create HotEnd Heater
                    M307 H1 R2.383 C178.5:130.6 D5.32 S1.00 V23.9					; Hotend PID new version !!saved In config-override!!
                    M143 H1 S285													; Set temperature limit for heater 1 to 285C HotEnd
                    M302 S185 R185
                     
                    ; Fans
                    M950 F1 C"out5" Q250											; Creates HOTEND Fan
                    M106 P1 T45 S235 H1												; HOTEND Fan Settings
                    M950 F0 C"out6" Q100											; Creates PARTS COOLING FAN
                    M106 P0 H-1														; Set fan 1 value, PWM signal inversion and frequency. Thermostatic control is turned off PARTS COOLING FAN
                     
                    ; Tools
                    M563 P0 D0 H1 F0												; Define tool 0
                    G10 P0 X0 Y0 Z0													; Set tool 0 axis offsets
                    G10 P0 R0 S0													; Set initial tool 0 active and standby temperatures to 0C
                     
                    G91
                    G1 X1 Y1 Z1														; calibrate StealthChop values
                    G90
                    M83
                    G4 S2
                    M84																; disable motors
                     
                    M98 P"0:/macros/02_Functions/StartupFilamentSensorCheck"		; Runout Sensor Logic: Startup with filament = runout sensor active   Startup without filament = autoload active
                     
                    ;M92 X200.00 Y200.00 Z400.00 E830.00								; Set steps per mm
                     
                    
                    M569 P0.0
                    Drive 0 runs in reverse, active low enable, timing fast, mode spreadCycle, ccr 0x00053, toff 3, tblank 0, hstart/hend/hdec 5/0/0, pos 136
                    
                    M569 P0.1
                    Drive 1 runs in reverse, active low enable, timing fast, mode spreadCycle, ccr 0x00053, toff 3, tblank 0, hstart/hend/hdec 5/0/0, pos 136
                    

                    HomeX

                    ; homex.g
                    ; called to home the X axis
                    ;
                    M561
                    M569 P0 D3 V1			; temporarily switch to StealthChop and set high changeover speed
                    M400                    ; make sure everything has stopped before we make changes
                    M574 X1 S3            	; set endstops to use motor stall
                    M913 X50				; reduce motor current to 50% to prevent belts slipping
                    G91						; use relative positioning
                    G1 H2 Z5				; Move Z up
                    M17 X					; energise X motor for stealthChop tuning
                    G4 P150					; pause to allow the driver to establish the motor parameters
                    G1 H1 X-270 F4000		; home X keep F above 3600 to maintain sensorless homing.
                    G90						; back to absolute positioning
                    M913 X100				; Reset power back to 100%
                    M569 P0 D2				; switch back to spreadcycle after homing complete
                    G1 X125 F5000			; centre the head and set a reasonable feed rate
                    

                    HomeY

                    ; homey.g
                    ; called to home the y axis
                    ;
                    M561
                    M569 P1 D3 V1				; temporarily switch to StealthChop and set high changeover speed
                    M400						; make sure everything has stopped before we make changes
                    M574 Y1 S3					; set endstops to use motor stall
                    M913 Y50					; reduce motor current to 50% to prevent belts slipping
                    G91
                    G1 H2 Z5					; Move Z up
                    M17 y						; energise y motor for stealthChop tuning
                    G4 P150						; pause to allow the driver to establish the motor parameters
                    G1 H1 y-270 F4000			; home Y keep F above 3600 to maintain sensorless homing.
                    G90							; back to absolute positioning
                    M913 Y100					; Reset motor power back to 100%
                    M569 P1 D2					; switch back to spreadcycle after homing complete
                    G1 Y100 F5000				; centre the head and set a reasonable feed rate
                    

                    HomeAll

                    ; homeall.g
                    ; called to home all axes
                    ;
                    ; homeall.g
                    ; called to home all axes
                    ; Sensorless Homing X / Y Axis
                    
                    
                    
                    
                    M98 P"homex.g"
                    M98 P"homey.g"
                    M98 P"homez.g"
                    
                    G1 X25 Y255 Z15 F5000
                    
                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • droftartsundefined
                      droftarts administrators @carcamerarig
                      last edited by droftarts

                      @carcamerarig I think this is the issue @Argo was referring to when he said this also affects Marlin: https://github.com/MarlinFirmware/Marlin/issues/18286. It's quite a read!

                      So there does seem to be something related to 0.9° motors with the Trinamic 2209 (though also seems to affect other drivers), and it affects all firmwares. However, some people report fixing it by improving the smoothness of their axes (loosening belt tension, stiffening frame, lubricating axes) which points to a frequency in the machine frame that the motors struggle with; by effectively doubling step rate frequency, it shows up problems in other parts that were not previously perceived. Others change the off-time in the chopper control register, though it's something I don't currently have guidance on doing, except for 'just try it'; it's the F parameter in M569, can be 1 to 15. It's also possible these particular motors are susceptible to 'mid-band resonance'; see https://www.geckodrive.com/support/step-motor-basics/mid-band-instability.html

                      I don't have a simple answer to this problem, and currently can't test for it; my Mini 5+ is tied up trying to track down another issue. I also don't have any 0.9° motors. However, could you try the following, if you haven't already:

                      1. First, is it both X and Y axes that resonate, or just one of them? Is it the LDO 42sth48-2004mac or 42sth25-1404mac motors that cause the problem?
                      2. Disconnect the affected motor(s) from the printer, and run it on it's own at speeds that normally make it vibrate. Does it still do it? If not...
                      3. With motors off the axes, move the axes by hand at a range of speeds, slow and fast. Is there any speed that causes chatter/resistance? I've had this before, turned out to be dry rubber seals on the linear bearings chattering. If not...
                      4. With the motor on the machine, find the exact speed that causes the issue. Send a long move at a specific speed. Start slow and go up in small steps. There should be one speed that is particularly bad. From that, we can work out the frequency that this is happening, which may help working out what's causing the problem.
                      5. Have a play around with the M569 F parameter, see if it helps.

                      I have no idea if this will resolve this issue. I don't think we've any reports of this problem before, and I'm not clear how many people responding to this thread have this problem too. Consider it 'under investigation'.

                      Ian

                      freighttt created this issue in MarlinFirmware/Marlin

                      closed [BUG] TMC2209 with LDO 0.9 VERY noisy/resonant/vibratory #18286

                      Bed-slinger - Mini5+ WiFi/1LC | RRP Fisher v1 - D2 WiFi | Polargraph - D2 WiFi | TronXY X5S - 6HC/Roto | CNC router - 6HC | Tractus3D T1250 - D2 Eth

                      ctilley79undefined SputnikOC3dundefined Argoundefined 3 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 1
                      • ctilley79undefined
                        ctilley79 @droftarts
                        last edited by

                        @droftarts The strange behavior is the complete loss of steps and layer shifts even in SpreadCycle full time. I can see noise being an issue, but the jerks and studders seem odd.

                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                        • SputnikOC3dundefined
                          SputnikOC3d @droftarts
                          last edited by droftarts

                          @droftarts said in Missing Steps - Cant Print SpreadCycle StealthChop tuning help:

                          I don't think we've any reports of this problem before, and I'm not clear how many people responding to this thread have this problem too.

                          This forum is filled with threads and posts of 2209 drivers thud'ing and vibrating and shuddering with the high speed transition to Spreadcycle from StealthChop ... with all type of motors. However this is odd because of the forced Spreadcycle ALSO exhibiting the issue

                          droftartsundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                          • droftartsundefined
                            droftarts administrators @SputnikOC3d
                            last edited by

                            @sputnikoc3d @ctilley79 yes, I understand this is not a changeover between spreadcycle and stealthchop problem. It’s related to motor speed, the mode is irrelevant. I’m trying to discern if it’s a motor/driver issue, or if there is a machine element. If it’s the first, @carcamerarig has offered to send me a motor, and I can test it on a variety of boards.

                            @SputnikOC3d please don’t quote a whole long post that you’re not actually referring to, it makes the thread very long and harder to navigate.

                            Ian

                            Bed-slinger - Mini5+ WiFi/1LC | RRP Fisher v1 - D2 WiFi | Polargraph - D2 WiFi | TronXY X5S - 6HC/Roto | CNC router - 6HC | Tractus3D T1250 - D2 Eth

                            SputnikOC3dundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                            • Argoundefined
                              Argo @droftarts
                              last edited by Argo

                              @droftarts

                              Thanks, that was the issue on GitHub I had in mind.
                              There was also a Marlin 2 issue on GitHub before that one which was closed unfortunately (and so deleted) that also included a E-Mail conversation with TMC and had measurements in it with those special tools which name I forgot lol ^^

                              With my Duet 3 Mini I was able to run 0.9 LDOs, even reliable. But acceleration, jerk, max speeds, belt tension, currents ... all has to be in some sort of "harmony" in order to run them ok'ish. I'm saying ok'ish because it's far from being optimal.

                              Here is the list of LDO 0.9 motors (and StepperOnline 0.9 motors) TMC2209 combinations I've tested so far:
                              SKR 1.4 board + TMC2209 with RRF (gloomyandy's build)
                              SKR 1.4 board + TMC2209 with Marlin 2
                              Duet 3 Mini

                              (Side note: I've toasted my SKR board during those tests because, well, it's not quite the tank as a Duet board =D)
                              None of these combinations were really satisfying .

                              In my opinion the TMC2660 (Duet 2 Wifi) can benefit from 0.9 motors but with TMC2209 I have to use my macro lens to see any difference.
                              That's why I'm saying it's not worth the hustle with 0.9 motors.

                              droftartsundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                              • SputnikOC3dundefined
                                SputnikOC3d @droftarts
                                last edited by

                                @droftarts said in Missing Steps - Cant Print SpreadCycle StealthChop tuning help:

                                @SputnikOC3d please don’t quote a whole long post that you’re not actually referring to, it makes the thread very long and harder to navigate.

                                Ian

                                You got it champ ... I'll work on better forum reply posting etiquette ...

                                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                • droftartsundefined
                                  droftarts administrators @Argo
                                  last edited by

                                  @argo thanks for the extra detail. Did you test the motors on your machine, or on their own? It does seem some 0.9 motors are fine; the E3d motors are mentioned by some in that thread as being okay.

                                  Ian

                                  Bed-slinger - Mini5+ WiFi/1LC | RRP Fisher v1 - D2 WiFi | Polargraph - D2 WiFi | TronXY X5S - 6HC/Roto | CNC router - 6HC | Tractus3D T1250 - D2 Eth

                                  Argoundefined gloomyandyundefined 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                  • Argoundefined
                                    Argo @droftarts
                                    last edited by

                                    @droftarts

                                    I tested them only on my i3 style bed slingers.
                                    There are small differences between motors. The StepperOnline motor for example is a bit quieter.

                                    If you are referring to the 0.9 Moons posting in the GitHub Marlin issue. I think I read somewhere deeper that he isn't using TMC2209s. I was almost pushing the buttons to buy Moons for further testing.

                                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                    • gloomyandyundefined
                                      gloomyandy @droftarts
                                      last edited by

                                      @droftarts As a further data point I use E3D 0.9 steppers with both TM2209 and TMC5160 drivers on a coreXY setup. In both cases I'd say that although they work for me, they are certainly much noisier than the 1.8 motors they replaced and it was also much harder to get sensorless homing configured with them, the range of settings in which the motor would actually move but would also stall when needed seemed to be much smaller.

                                      I operate the drives in Stealthchop all of the time at relatively modest speeds. Print speed max 60mm/S non print moves max 200mm/S. I'm running lower steps/mm than those quoted here mine are 180steps/mm.

                                      All of the above testing was using the RRF STM32F4 port on a Bigtreetech SKR Pro.

                                      T3P3Tonyundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 3
                                      • carcamerarigundefined
                                        carcamerarig
                                        last edited by

                                        So this morning ive disabled input shaper as that was coined as a possible cause but it didn't make any noticeable difference. I then disabled mesh bed levelling which has made the bump worse and more frequent. Ill pull each motor and see which or both is having the issue.

                                        The minor bumps / bangs were still present on infill but the bigger thump was on the travel move from the front square to the disc, with mesh bed levelling active travel moves were ok since forcing SpreadCycle.

                                        IMG_1320.JPG

                                        droftartsundefined 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                        • droftartsundefined
                                          droftarts administrators @carcamerarig
                                          last edited by

                                          @carcamerarig Can you post a gcode file that demonstrates the problem? The one used in your previous post will be fine.

                                          Ian

                                          Bed-slinger - Mini5+ WiFi/1LC | RRP Fisher v1 - D2 WiFi | Polargraph - D2 WiFi | TronXY X5S - 6HC/Roto | CNC router - 6HC | Tractus3D T1250 - D2 Eth

                                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                          • T3P3Tonyundefined
                                            T3P3Tony administrators @gloomyandy
                                            last edited by

                                            @gloomyandy thanks that's helpful. could you point to any specific differences in what you observed between the 5160 and the 2209?

                                            www.duet3d.com

                                            gloomyandyundefined SputnikOC3dundefined 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 1
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