[Revo] New hot end system from E3D?
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@o_lampe said in New hot end system from E3D?:
@bricor @dc42
They're using a PTC heater element, wondering how that will cooperate with RRF PID tuning?I did not notice any difference to "normal" heaters, it worked just fine.
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@diamondback said in New hot end system from E3D?:
I did not notice any difference to "normal" heaters, it worked just fine.
When you run the Duet's PID, did it report a lower 'max temperature' due to the PTC?
The PTC is represented as a safety feature that limits the max temp in case the power mostfet get stuck in on state.
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From what I've read from devs on the Voron discords who have had pre-release versions for quite some time now, I will probably get one as soon as I can. They are very happy with them.
I can pay a bit premium buying from a European company as with Bondtech and Duet as long they offer functionality and just aren't patent trolls or marketing...
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@deckingman said in New hot end system from E3D?:
... the genuine original product would be cheaper and need not be a niche product.
It depends. If you have government protection for your product, maximizing profit doesn't necessary means maximizing the user base (at a lower per unit cost).
'innovations' are dime a dozen and if they will chose to be expensive and protected, they will lose the community.
As for this new product, my understanding that the main selling points are ease of changing nozzles and high flow rate, and if they will be found attractive to the market (I am not sure about that), people will find non infringing ways to provide them.
This is by no mean a criticism of E3D. They have the right to chose any legal business model they want.
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@zapta RRF does not seem to notice that, it still warns me about a massively high temp (I haven't really tested how high it can go past 290°C, did not want to risk any damage or bake the silicone sock)
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@zapta
I wonder if E3D was in any way "inspired" by the maxiwatt heater. It definitely looks very similar...(UTC+1)
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@achrn no issue tunning on my beta unit!
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@diamondback, maybe the curve 'bend' does at a higher temperature.
PTC elements are used in most hot glue guns, eliminating the need for active control system. As a result, they take much longer than needed to heat because the power reduction starts to take affect very early. Here, they are targeting higher temperatures and have active control system so may have a PTC with a much higher infliction temperature.
A video by Nero3D also suggests that the Revo hot ends has lower thermal mass which results in faster heating and cooling.
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@diy-o-sphere said in New hot end system from E3D?:
I wonder if E3D was in any way "inspired" by the maxiwatt heater. It definitely looks very similar...
Looks very similar
They didn't disclose yet what their patent applications cover. Can be any aspect of the design. I would guess something related to the quick release/change since it may be a good selling point and start a trend.
EDIT: @diy-o-sphere,m maybe E3D purchase their new heaters from maxiwhatt, who knows.
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when i first saw the images of it , i thought it is some kind of quick disconnect mechanism to push the nozzle in . Now i realize it the same threaded nozzle , but now its much longer and has an integrated heat break .
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@plasticfactory no, the heater block is held in place by a spring.
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@diamondback @jay_s_uk
It would be interesting to see tuning results made with different target temps. That's probably the only way to tell any difference between PTC or linear resistance heaters.
My gutt feeling tells me, you can't just tune for PLA-temp and expect same stable result at ABS- or higher temps. -
@achrn said in New hot end system from E3D?:
But I expect E3D have some idea that it works...
I would say yes, I have no issues with the new hot end it's small it's fast, and it works very fine
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@zapta said in New hot end system from E3D?:
@diamondback, maybe the curve 'bend' does at a higher temperature.
PTC elements are used in most hot glue guns, eliminating the need for active control system. As a result, they take much longer than needed to heat because the power reduction starts to take affect very early. Here, they are targeting higher temperatures and have active control system so may have a PTC with a much higher infliction temperature.
A video by Nero3D also suggests that the Revo hot ends has lower thermal mass which results in faster heating and cooling.
In Sanjay's interview with Vector3D, he mentioned that the heater maxes out with a "mild glow" at the very worst case (using a 12V heater with a 36V supply), so yea, very likely that at 300C nothing crazy happens yet. However, you ca see that the avg PWM is higher than "normal" heaters.
@o_lampe said in New hot end system from E3D?:
@diamondback @jay_s_uk
It would be interesting to see tuning results made with different target temps. That's probably the only way to tell any difference between PTC or linear resistance heaters.
My gutt feeling tells me, you can't just tune for PLA-temp and expect same stable result at ABS- or higher temps.I have various stages of this on my TC and they are all tuned for 240°C. I've had no issues with stability with that tuning in the range that I usually print in (210°C to 290°C)
The super quick response times usually help PID controls to oscillate at higher frequencies, ie less visible. -
@weed2all said in New hot end system from E3D?:
@achrn no issue tunning on my beta unit!
Thanks. Having now seen more photos (and video) there seems to be a nice large metal-metal face between the top face of the nozzle's enlarged 'head' and the bottom face of the heater (assuming normal downwards-facing-nozzle orientation), which will have the spring keeping it in contact (and stay in contact with differential heating / expansion).
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@achrn said in New hot end system from E3D?:
@weed2all said in New hot end system from E3D?:
@achrn no issue tunning on my beta unit!
Thanks. Having now seen more photos (and video) there seems to be a nice large metal-metal face between the top face of the nozzle's enlarged 'head' and the bottom face of the heater (assuming normal downwards-facing-nozzle orientation), which will have the spring keeping it in contact (and stay in contact with differential heating / expansion).
That's correct.
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Does the Revo still use groove mount? (vs Slice style screws).
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It would be nice if e3d would get away from using structural heat breaks and groove mount. It does look like there might be a through hole/screw option for deltas just looking at their page. I assume it'll be priced around the mosquito's level but it's worse imo esp. with the non standard nozzles.
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@jphilly said in New hot end system from E3D?:
It would be nice if e3d would get away from using structural heat breaks and groove mount. It does look like there might be a through hole/screw option for deltas just looking at their page. I assume it'll be priced around the mosquito's level but it's worse imo esp. with the non standard nozzles.
Groove mount is only for backwards compatibility. The "real" product uses M12 thread mounting (Revo Micro)
E3D mentioned around 120$ for a full hotend with 4 nozzles.
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@diamondback said in New hot end system from E3D?:
E3D mentioned around 120$ for a full hotend with 4 nozzles.
I was quite a bit off then, but I can't see the nozzles or heater being cheap to replace since they're a one off.
I'm not sure about M12 staying put when changing nozzles. At least on my mosquitos it takes a fair bit of torque to loosen a cold nozzle and they're saying it'll be hand loosenable but who knows
