[Revo] New hot end system from E3D?
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@alankilian said in New hot end system from E3D?:
If they can sell the full hotend and four nozzles for US$120 it seems like pricing for replacement nozzles should be reasonable.
...dream on
Maybe it's like buying an inkjet printer for peanuts and later spend $$$ for new ink.
It's the classic Rockefeller method: hook'em up with a cheap lantern, then sell petroleum for grands... -
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I wonder whether the coupling between heater element and sensor (all in one integrated unit) will be tighter than between heater element and nozzle (noting also that the nozzles seems a loosish fit in the heater element - I see a spring apparently to keep things from completely loose).
But I expect E3D have some idea that it works...
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@zapta said in New hot end system from E3D?:
Without cheap clones and imitations, at this price it will be a niche product, like Slice's. Weather we like it or not, it's the cheap Chinese products that create the wide adoption and a rich eco system.
If it wasn't for cheap clones, the genuine original product would be cheaper and need not be a niche product. It's the cheap clones that drive up the price of the genuine original and stifle innovation. It costs money to design and develop a new product. That R&D cost can be amortised over a number of unit sales. Let's say for example that it costs a company 10,000 in R&D costs to develop an idea. If that company can sell 10,000 units, then they would only need to charge 1.00 per unit to get their costs back. But if they only sell 100 units, then they would need to charge 100.00 per unit just to get their R&D costs back. So when cloners come along and steal their ideas, they have no such R&D costs, so they can undercut the original, which drives down sales of the original making the cost differential greater.
Cloners are not interested in developing new products - why should they when they can steal other peoples ideas for nothing? So why would any company spend money on R&D if they can never get that money back?
A case in point. I've spent 2 years attempting to develop a 6 input hot end - probably about 10 hours a week on average. That's 1000 hours of my time @ say a modest £10 per hour = £10,000 for labour. Then I bought a small lathe and milling machine plus tooling so another £2,000 or so. So if this ever went to market, I would want get that £12,000 back. But I know that I could never sell enough units at a reasonable enough price to recoup that cost because a Chinese cloner would steal my design and so could sell them for less. So if ever I get this thing working, I will take the design to my grave rather then let a thief profit from it.
I often wonder how many other innovative ideas are sitting around which will never be bought to market for the same reasons.
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@o_lampe I've had no issues tuning my beta unit
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@o_lampe said in New hot end system from E3D?:
@bricor @dc42
They're using a PTC heater element, wondering how that will cooperate with RRF PID tuning?I did not notice any difference to "normal" heaters, it worked just fine.
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@diamondback said in New hot end system from E3D?:
I did not notice any difference to "normal" heaters, it worked just fine.
When you run the Duet's PID, did it report a lower 'max temperature' due to the PTC?
The PTC is represented as a safety feature that limits the max temp in case the power mostfet get stuck in on state.
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From what I've read from devs on the Voron discords who have had pre-release versions for quite some time now, I will probably get one as soon as I can. They are very happy with them.
I can pay a bit premium buying from a European company as with Bondtech and Duet as long they offer functionality and just aren't patent trolls or marketing...
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@deckingman said in New hot end system from E3D?:
... the genuine original product would be cheaper and need not be a niche product.
It depends. If you have government protection for your product, maximizing profit doesn't necessary means maximizing the user base (at a lower per unit cost).
'innovations' are dime a dozen and if they will chose to be expensive and protected, they will lose the community.
As for this new product, my understanding that the main selling points are ease of changing nozzles and high flow rate, and if they will be found attractive to the market (I am not sure about that), people will find non infringing ways to provide them.
This is by no mean a criticism of E3D. They have the right to chose any legal business model they want.
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@zapta RRF does not seem to notice that, it still warns me about a massively high temp (I haven't really tested how high it can go past 290°C, did not want to risk any damage or bake the silicone sock)
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@zapta
I wonder if E3D was in any way "inspired" by the maxiwatt heater. It definitely looks very similar...(UTC+1)
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@achrn no issue tunning on my beta unit!
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@diamondback, maybe the curve 'bend' does at a higher temperature.
PTC elements are used in most hot glue guns, eliminating the need for active control system. As a result, they take much longer than needed to heat because the power reduction starts to take affect very early. Here, they are targeting higher temperatures and have active control system so may have a PTC with a much higher infliction temperature.
A video by Nero3D also suggests that the Revo hot ends has lower thermal mass which results in faster heating and cooling.
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@diy-o-sphere said in New hot end system from E3D?:
I wonder if E3D was in any way "inspired" by the maxiwatt heater. It definitely looks very similar...
Looks very similar
They didn't disclose yet what their patent applications cover. Can be any aspect of the design. I would guess something related to the quick release/change since it may be a good selling point and start a trend.
EDIT: @diy-o-sphere,m maybe E3D purchase their new heaters from maxiwhatt, who knows.
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when i first saw the images of it , i thought it is some kind of quick disconnect mechanism to push the nozzle in . Now i realize it the same threaded nozzle , but now its much longer and has an integrated heat break .
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@plasticfactory no, the heater block is held in place by a spring.
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@diamondback @jay_s_uk
It would be interesting to see tuning results made with different target temps. That's probably the only way to tell any difference between PTC or linear resistance heaters.
My gutt feeling tells me, you can't just tune for PLA-temp and expect same stable result at ABS- or higher temps. -
@achrn said in New hot end system from E3D?:
But I expect E3D have some idea that it works...
I would say yes, I have no issues with the new hot end it's small it's fast, and it works very fine
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@zapta said in New hot end system from E3D?:
@diamondback, maybe the curve 'bend' does at a higher temperature.
PTC elements are used in most hot glue guns, eliminating the need for active control system. As a result, they take much longer than needed to heat because the power reduction starts to take affect very early. Here, they are targeting higher temperatures and have active control system so may have a PTC with a much higher infliction temperature.
A video by Nero3D also suggests that the Revo hot ends has lower thermal mass which results in faster heating and cooling.
In Sanjay's interview with Vector3D, he mentioned that the heater maxes out with a "mild glow" at the very worst case (using a 12V heater with a 36V supply), so yea, very likely that at 300C nothing crazy happens yet. However, you ca see that the avg PWM is higher than "normal" heaters.
@o_lampe said in New hot end system from E3D?:
@diamondback @jay_s_uk
It would be interesting to see tuning results made with different target temps. That's probably the only way to tell any difference between PTC or linear resistance heaters.
My gutt feeling tells me, you can't just tune for PLA-temp and expect same stable result at ABS- or higher temps.I have various stages of this on my TC and they are all tuned for 240°C. I've had no issues with stability with that tuning in the range that I usually print in (210°C to 290°C)
The super quick response times usually help PID controls to oscillate at higher frequencies, ie less visible. -
@weed2all said in New hot end system from E3D?:
@achrn no issue tunning on my beta unit!
Thanks. Having now seen more photos (and video) there seems to be a nice large metal-metal face between the top face of the nozzle's enlarged 'head' and the bottom face of the heater (assuming normal downwards-facing-nozzle orientation), which will have the spring keeping it in contact (and stay in contact with differential heating / expansion).
